Luciana Tamas: The orientation of mail-art is not commercial?

LT : I have travelled some times in The Netherlands and I visited quite a great number of museums and galleries. The Dutch's love for all what is art and for the collecting of artistical objects is unstoppable (this is absolutely fabulous). You say that mail-art has no commercial orientations. How does this situation conciliate with the general context of the country you develop your activity in ?

RJ : The discovering of Mail-Art brought me in contact with the larger world. I visited a lot of museums too. But the best gallery turned out to be my mail-box. You can't buy the personal energy people send in the form of artworks just for you. Mail-Art is an international art-movement that always tried to stay away from the mail art-galleries and museums. But that doesn't mean they are not interested in this movement. Only through archives that mail-artists have kept over the years, parts of the mail-art get into these museums. The need for collecting things grows inside of mail-art too. You can't buy it though, you will have to invest creative energy in order to get some in return.

Luciana Tamas: Returning to my first question.

LT : Returning to my first question: a bigger and bigger number of people who come from domains which don't traditionally have direct connection with literature (like mathematics, physiks, chemestry, even politics) declare themselves as being poets. On the other hand, the literary men talk about "poetry's death". How do you explain this situation ?

RJ : I can only speak for myself. I had both interests in Science and in Art. My decision to study Physics was combined with the thought that this studie would be the basis for my life and that art would be the form in which I had to make no compromise to what I want to do. My art doesn't have to be sold. I make what I like to make. I send it to who I want it to have. The essence in this idea is I believe that Art and Money are not stimulating each other. Making art to make money makes you depending on the viewer, the buyer, the gallery, the museum. You say that some people declare themselves "poet". Maybe they just mean that they let creativity go its way without following the boarders set by science and rules from others.

Luciana Tamas: isn't there the risk that only a quite elitistic zone to be able to perceive a such message.

I understand the question. You write: "isn't there the danger for that "hybrid" which results from their combination to not be intercepted with enough clarity by those who watch each one of these domains in a traditional way ?
It is obvious that the poetic metaphor can find its correspondent in form, as well as the visual image (even the one generated by computersystems) has, certainly, a metaphoric component, but this implies also a receiver with an extremely well-trained vision. The question is: isn't there the risk that only a quite elitistic zone to be able to perceive a such message". .

Who do we make the art for? Is it the public or does the artist just want to present his message in the timeframe and possibilities he is offered? In Mail-Art the art goes originally from artist to artist. No gallery needed. What I send goes direct to the observer and he/she should be able to interpret what I send him. if not, than the message is lost (or maybe archived). The observer doesn't have to be well-trained. I made the piece especially for him/her. Also there is normally no money involved. The artworks are gifts from one artist to another. So the concept we are dealing with in mail-art is completely different from the artworld. It is actually avoiding the official artworld. That sometimes work does end up in museums is just because they catch up and want the new markets too.....

Luciana Tamas: Combining Literature with art?

Your first question: "Because we adress ourselves to a public which is interested, first of all, in literature, please tell us about your activity as a poet and about the way you managed to combine literature with art". is a difficult one to start with. I did once write poetry the traditional way. Words on paper. That was even before I started with my activities in mail-art in 1980. What Mail-Art showed me is that more artforms can be combined and that the thread in it all becomes the communication process. Nowedays Poetry even can be generated from computersystems. When you play them right the results are beautiful. Do you play them 'wrong' the result is boring and computerlike. The creativity is what makes something art. Repetition is something comeletely different.

Hal: Are you still interviewing Mail-Artists?

Well Hal, it is a question that I get more often. Sometimes I do start an interview but only rarely and only when I have the time. People who request to be interviewed by me were also not choosen during the Mail-Interview project. Just because otherwise all contacts I have could be asking that. I did think out a system back in 1998-2000 where mail-artists could indicate who I should consider (they could not mention themselves), and that brought me hints on people to interview that I wasn't even aware of. Actually that turned into a kind of startistical event where I would find out about the existing networks outside my own network.

6 kilo's of Mail-Interviews

Today my order of books from LuLu arrived. 6 kilo's of Mail-Interviews. As you can see the books are quite thick. Some are 360+ pages thick. If you are interested, you can order one or all of them yourself at: http://stores.lulu.com/iuoma The copies that arrived in Breda now are for the TAM-Archive itself. The selling of the books goes quite well. About 50 are already sold and are now in some Mail-Art collections for sure. I am working on a new book as well. Details will follow when the time is right.

Johnny Boy: anything else you may want to add.

Well, sure. I am currious to what kind of question you really would like to have answered after reading my answers. Just leave a comment and I will answer that as well.

Johnny Boy: has your opinion about the network changed, and if yes, why.

Seems like I already answered that in connection to your previous question. Life is always full of changes. Networks too. They evolve, change, loose members, gain new members, change shape. The digital networks change even faster.

My opinion of the network. Has that changed? Not really. A network is a group of people who work together to reach a certain goal. That goal is mostly not fixed. It might be an idea by some which evolves too. The good neworks start with a good idea and live long. When the goal is reached the network has no function anymore. Maybe look for an unreachable goal, and the network lasts forever.

In digital networks the goal is sometimes hidden. When money gets involved the secret agendas are there. Large networks that are digital costs money which is earned by advertisings. That tends to get commercial also when they say they are not. In Mail-Art Lon Spiegelman claimed "Mail-Art and Money don't mix", and he has a very good point there.

Changes are part of life. So networks change too. The question is simple and always answered by yes.

Johnny Boy: are you still networking, and why.

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't answer such questions. The network has changed. So have the tools. Is your magazine Kairan only a hardcopy version? No, also a digital version exists. The people you reach is a veru broader and different public. Old contacts that were never online suddenly pop up (like e.g. Anna Boschi and more who I discovered on http://www.openfluxus.com/ ). Also I have just finished publishing all text-material of my mail-interview project in bookform. Six books have come out, so everybody has at least acces to this material in a compiled form.


Not many people will order these kind of books. That isn't important. The information was already out there in loose bits and pieces. Now it is collected in thick textbooks. In a way for me also a new phase. I will think of a new larger project to do. I know I like to experiment with the new tools that our world offers. In 1985 the BBS was already doing the same as what LuLu offers now to all. The distribution of digital documents. I now also work in the field where the new ways ar developed. My students build content management systems and know the Internet better then I do. We learn from each other and that is what it is all about.

Johnny Boy: what happened to you as a person and a mail artist in these 10 plus years.

Well, Johnny, a lot happenened. The Mail-Interview project stopped because there was not enought time to do all and some interviews never seem to get finished. You are asking the samen mail-artists some questions 10+ years later. In a way very funny. I always asked the questions one by one. That way the next question is always a reaction to the answer. In a questionaire like you sent the people just tend to sum things up and the results are less revealing. Who would have thought up a question like "Why do you live in a church" which I asked Dick Higgins. Because he revealed this hidden in one of his answers.....

As A Person:

Yes, changes. Moved to another city, got married, changed job, and that are mostly large changes for a person. Getting older means make dessicions before life itself takes over.

In Mail-Art:

Also here a lot changed. Because of the Internet the communication is shifting to electronic forms. Blogs, online shows, digital publications, etc. The old-fashioned mail-art is scarce thing these days. The old generation sometimes really treasures the snail-mail though, and so do I. But sending out a lot isn't that easy anymore. Time in these fast years, the costs of mailing an envelope, the vanished old generation of mail-artists I used to be in contact with. The mail-art network has changed. Newcomers discover mail-art again and start mailing too. That is the most fascinating thing I guess. Mail-Art starts a discovery course for someones life.

Tanja Vos: Why do you like to interview people?

Well, that is something that comes from the past I guess. I always have liked to ask questions. Also back when I still was studying I have learned that good questions are always interesting. With the right question at the right moment a world opens for you. The wrong question again won't bring you any further.

Asking questions is also a way to get information. Every person you encounter can teach you something. Sometimes we don't realize that. If you are interested in a very specific subject, the only way to learn more is by asking questions.

The Mail-Interview project I did was in a way a search for more information. I realized I didn't knew all I would like to about the persons that are inside that large mail-art network. So I started to ask questions in a very structured but yet very open way.....

Carly Toyzan: Is there anything else you'd like to add?

There is enough on my website. I have had a lot of interviews done and it is always difficult to repeat the same things again and again. I appreciate quite specific questions one at a time. That works best because I then can let my mind go any direction. Mail-art changes ones life. It has changed mine in many ways because some seamingly unimportant pieces of mail-art made drastic changes in my life and brough me lots of new things. That might happen to anyone that starts with mail-art.....

Carly Toyzan: What is your favorite thing about mail art? What do you get from it? What does it mean to you?

The rubberstamps are the most fascinating thing I discovered in mail-art. That is why I started to work a lot with them and in 1983 started the TAM Rubberstamp Archive. Next year is is 25 years old. It has already been exhibited in San Francisco (USA) and Moscow (Russia), and who know where the next exhibition will be with this huge collection.

Carly Toyzan: Please describe any especially memorable pieces of mail art you have received or sent.

A contribution for my magazine IPM in 1993. It was the International Poetry Magazine and I received an exceptional contribution from Litsa Spathi. Only one month later I answered and our correspondence began and grew. In 1996 we met for the first time and after that things grew. Now we are married and live for over two years together in Breda.

The contribtion by the way was an object book. Very well done, and something new to me then. This contribution changed my life completely and shows how mail-art has an impact on someones life. I am not the only one. A lot of mail-artists can tell similar stories.....

Carly Toyzan: I wonder, how did mail artists network before the Internet?

1. Magazines. There were many. Now almost none. One of these magazines I started myself, the TAM Bulletin. It run for several years and also was available in digital format.
See also: http://www.iuoma.org/tambulhi.html

2. Pass and add on projects. Each mail-artists adds his art and address and passes this on. That way the amount of address cumulates and is circulated. When someone makes a few copies of such a paper and distributes. It speeds up things even more

3. Addresslist that were used by the older generations were published in catalogues.

4. The Xerox machine helps to distribute information. Nowadays people just copy and paste. (And e-mail to a large senderlist)

5. Network is a lot of work. Distribution costed more energy and postage....... Some projects were meant to expand the network. I did a socio-project which even run out of hand. I asked 25 people to copy a 'controlled' chain-letter. Add your name and send it to howmany neames you want. Send me the namelist of the people who will receive the list. This expanded and brought me over 3000 addresses. To document such an event was very difficult. But I did try.

just a few ideas.....
another sample of early networking: one page out of the TAM-bulletin with some historic projects.

Carly Toyzan: In your opinion, does the Internet help or hurt mail art and why?

Both

Internet makes communication cheap with e-mail and sites and blogs. The traditional mail gets expensive and unaccessible for most.

Internet makes mail-art known to a complete new audience and new people discover and start.

The mail-art that is sent out is more carefully sent out. Sometimes with other goals. Some send out mail to get it published on a website, not for a traditional show. Catalogues are scarce, but websites pop up every week.

Carly Toyzan: Can you describe how the Internet has changed mail art?

Well, how to answer something like that. Yes, new ways of communications were added to the pallet of a mailartist. I started to call them communication-artists. I have been using e-mail since 1985 or so, even before the e-mail was common use. I experimented and wrote about these experiments. Too much info to just press in one answer. Summerizing it: New ways and new tools for creative people.

Carly Toyzan: Was it a way to avoid the exclusivity of the art world?

In a way that too. If you want an audience for your work there is nothing easier as send it to the audience. Or arrange your own exhibition with a project. In Mail-Art the art world has no grip on what happens. For decades the art world didn't even know about the complete network. Ray Johnson did communicate with museums though. He corresponded a lot with Clive Philpot who was director of the MoMa Libarry in New York (see interview I did with him on http://www.iuoma.org/)

Carly Toyzan: Can you describe when you believe mail art started and why artists started to do it?

The real start was when the communication with mail was used as a medium for art. Ray Johnson did start experimenting with this but the term Mail-Art was thought out by someone else. Why artists started this? The need to communicate. The need to send art to someone who doesn't want to buy it but who can react to it. The need to have an audience for art that isn't accepted by the galleries and standardd musea. Just a lot of reasons and the time for something new.

Carly Toyzan:There seems to be some disagreeance about when mail art started and why it started. From what I've read, some believe it started the 50's

When Mail-art started is a difficult question. It all depends on how you want to see things. Best way to explain it is to cite the Wikipedia definition. You can read it all here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail-Art

Where it reads: An amorphous international mail art network, involving thousands of participants in over fifty countries, evolved between the 1950s and the 1990s It was influenced by other movements, including Dada and Fluxus.

It also explains a lot of different versions about the History....

Funny is that I started this entry in the Wikipedia on Mail-Art. Somebody told me that there was nothing there on the subject and I started to write for them. The current version is altered many times by many people, but it is funny to realize I started something there.

An Electronic Interview with Ruud Janssen

After The Mail-Interview Project this is a new concept. The answers with illustrations come automatically after the questions are placed. It just seems that there are no question in the first week. Do you have a question for me? Just leave it here in a comment!

Ongoing Interview

This is a simple blog. Leave your question as a comment, and I will repeat your question and give an answer. I will keep this blog low-profile. The persons that are really interested in knowing things surely will find this blog and will ask. If not, the blog will stay online with just this first remark.